Official Luthiers Forum!

I searched for the phrase 'hide glue' in the archives and didnt find much info, so I assume it aint too popular around here.

I LOVE it!

Doesnt require much clamping pressure and doesnt skate at all when adjusting position.

I also did a few experiments to check the elasticity of common glues and found they were all somewhat rubbery tone killers. Only hide glue dries super hard.

I wonder though about how much water to add, because some internet folks think there should be NO evaporation involved...which would mean no water is added prior to heating???

I use pearl hide - cover a tablespoon or two with cold water - put it in the fridge - take it out a few hours later when the pearls have absorbed all the water and swelled up - heat it up in a water bath using an old wok.

I only use enough water to cover the pearls by a quarter inch.

Is anyone out there just heating it straight without water, so that it solidifies instantly ONLY by cooling???

You're reporting old news, John. Lots of folks use it but not the pearls as you describe.

192 g. high clarity granules...good stuff...and tasty too! That's all I've ever heard used in lutherie.

What are the benefits of the pearl in your opinion?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

John,

Go to frets.com and look for Frank Ford's article on hide glue preparation. Another popular glue subject recently on OLF is fish glue, which has properties similar to HHG, but come premixed, requires no heating, and has a much longer open time. Check the archives.

CrowDuck

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Chris Nielsen
Soquel, CA.

Hot Hide Glue is so popular around here that no one spells it out, well almost no one.   

It is so popular it is a TLA, Three Letter Acronym.

Do a search on HHG and you'll find it.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

John:

I did quick archive search on "hide glue" and found 8 full pages of threads on the topic, or threads containing those words...perhaps you can try searching on the phrase "hide glue".

As JJ said earlier, hide glue is a topic around here that is similar to breathing...can't live without it. And I also would be interested in more information about the pearl concept/use/etc.

Bill

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Well I'm obviously not using the search function properly, cause I only uncover five threads...including this one???

Pearl vs. Granular?

I cant speak to that because Ive never used granular. One of my clients who is also a wooodworker told me to stop mucking about with Titebond and get serious.

The supply he gave me should last a loooong time.

Oh I get it now...I was searching zee wrong forum.

Main Discussion instead of Forum archive...Whoops!

Here's the difference...per supplier J. E. Moser

1) Pearl...general purpose glue

2) Granular...purer grade, stronger bond, higher tack

Also, here's my recommendation...use the GRANULAR stuff that luthiers have used for many decades. Accept no substitutes.

Use the pearl for something else!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue]
Also, here's my recommendation...use the GRANULAR stuff that luthiers have used for many decades. Accept no substitutes.[/QUOTE]
Some people can use it to stick things on with their hand, without any clamping time.

So maybe they are just melting it straight without soaking in water first.

Does the granular stuff have a lower or higher melting point than pearl?

Do some basic research on HHG, John. You're not making sense to me. HHG DISSOLVES in water...it doesn't melt. It increases in viscosity to form a gel as it cools. The granules don't melt.

I have no idea what you mean by "sticking things on with hands, without any clamping time".

Do more research and get to know the product better.

Let's keep these discussions real, objective and as fact-based as possible.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue]
I have no idea what you mean by "sticking things on with hands, without any clamping time".
[/QUOTE]
I have read about woodworkers applying hide glue to surfaces and then sticking them together with nothing more than hand pressure for a minute or two - no clamps.

Now I imagined they might be handling the glue differently than soaking it first, because when water is added the glue dries not only by cooling but also by water absorbtion, which is slow.

I thought they might be somehow liquifying it with heat only, so that it would set more quickly - without clamps.

Its just a guess really.

Im certainly not able to use it without some clamping when its soaked in water.

[QUOTE=crowduck] John,

Go to frets.com and look for Frank Ford's article on hide glue preparation. Another popular glue subject recently on OLF is fish glue, which has properties similar to HHG, but come premixed, requires no heating, and has a much longer open time. Check the archives.[/QUOTE]
I just did, thanks Crow.
David Collins wrote an interesting piece on the subject.

[QUOTE=Telfer]
I have read about woodworkers applying hide glue to surfaces and then sticking them together with nothing more than hand pressure for a minute or two - no clamps.

[/QUOTE]

You are certainly correct in your research. This is the well-known 'rubbed joint' which has been used to join violin plates, etc etc together for hundreds of years. This is also the standard method for gluing in the 'tentellones' (separate blocks for linings to attach soundboard, rather than solid or kerfed) when they are used - generally in classical guitars.
If you have good hide glue, prepared properly (with water) and hot, it is easy to glue no-stress joints without clamps.

Don't be put off by the occasional 'frank comment' here..it's part of the culture, I think.

John

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie]
You are certainly correct in your research. This is the well-known 'rubbed joint' which has been used to join violin plates, etc etc together for hundreds of years.

If you have good hide glue, prepared properly (with water) and hot, it is easy to glue no-stress joints without clamps.[/QUOTE]
Ah, Im going to try that with the granular version. Apparently it sets up faster than my pearl...according to the Lee Valley catalog.

The reason the rubbed joint works so well with HHG and as I have found out, fish glue is that the glue shrinks as it dries and the water evaporates. This means the glue will "pull" the surfaces together, so in a way the clue is its own clamp. If you do this with a yellow or white glue you will not get this effect.

A while back I spread some fish glue on a 5 mm sheet of cork. The next day the sheet had turned into a shallow bowl covered with dry fish glue on the inside. The shrinking effect of HHG is also something bowmakers have taken advantage of for ages. It is used to apply a backing material (such as sinew) as a reinforcement to the backs of bows, and the shrinking effect of the HHG will pull the bow into a "reflex" profile therby adding "weight" and arrow speed to the bow.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Ah, fish glue. I just did my first round of gluing using fish glue this weekend. Did the rim assembly for an OM, and glued the back on a flamenco. The titebond bottle may never come out again.

But I do have some hide glue now, too, and will give it a shot on my next top-bracing session.

I have one of the electric heaters that everyone sells. Can I mix my granules and water in a plastic squeeze bottle, and then cook the bottle in a water bath in the heater? Does that get it to the right temp?

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

A popular and economical choice for a HHG heater is the Rival hotpot widely available for $15 or less. Monitor the temp with a meat or digital thermometor available for about $10 or less. As previously mentioned look for Frank Fords turorial on HHG at frets.com, he covers the subject thourougly.

CrowDuck

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Chris Nielsen
Soquel, CA.